As a child coming from a family where spanking was often threatened, and occasionally followed through with, I\'d say I am in the camp of: When no amount of reasoning, exlpanation, etc is working, then the occasional swat on the fanny is okay.
However, this should NOT be done in anger or in any sort of overly aggressive behaviour. It should be a calm and even \"planned\" event. (i.e. go to you room and wait there, you\'re going to get a spanking) and then follow through. In my mind, that will take the whole \"WTF is going on?\" factor out of it. There\'ll be no confusion, and you can talk to them before-hand and explain why they are being spanked.
Now some of you out there are convinced that this is cruel and unusual punishment, however keep in mind that at this point it isn\'t going to take much of a swat at all to get your point across.
I have a friend whose brother-in-law decided it was time to give his daughter a swat. He took her into her room and gave her, quite literally, a *tap* on the behind. Of course daughter thought it was the worst thing ever but got over it and to my knowledge has never broken that rule for which she was being punished since.
However, I do believe there is an appropriate age. I would believe that age to be one in which the child is old enough for you to explain \"why\" to them and the actually \"understand\" that. This is a major point. Naturally most 2 or even 3 year olds can\'t comprehend what is going on. When you can have a conversation with them, I could be more effective. I don\'t think I\'d be comfortable even threatening to spank until they were 4 or 5.
I remember back to when my father would give that look like you were going to be spanked. He\'d simply lean back, and unbuckle his belt...(he never used it on me, but man just seeing him do that was enough to snap us all in line). He had that old belt snap trick that made a loud crack that somehow found that spot in your spine that immediately paralyzed you.
I think, as a last resort, when all else fails, setting them aside to think about what is coming, reinforcing \"why\" it\'s happening, and then following through with a swat or two on the backside could be a very effective tool.
Having said all of that, I have never had to spank any child, and hope I never have to. The bigger question for me is, will I be able to if it were to come down to that? I think I can truly identify with the statement: \"This hurts me more than it hurts you...\"

My daughters are 21 and 19. I also have a step-daughter who is 28. My husband and I decided not to spank the girls - ever. We decided to use other methods to discipline the children and the girls turned out fine. It was a big committment for us, since we had both been raised in households where spanking (or whipping) was the norm. Is seems to me that any form of \"accepted\" discipline that has so conditions attached to it, that may with one incident cross the line into abuse, is not the way to go. The methods of discipline that we favored encouraged the girls to develop self-discipline. We literally never had to nag them about homework, set curfews, or take calls in the middle of the night that one of them was in trouble. We laid the groundwork when they were very young for the behaviors that were expected, and maybe it was because the relationships between the girls and us were based on love and respect and not fear, they\'ve always lived up to our expectations.

This subject is a hot-button issue for me for a number of reasons. I remember getting spanked as a child and those memories are very unpleasant for me. I talk to a lot of other people who can laugh about it, but I\'ve never been able to do that. I work at a children\'s home and I see the effects of physical punishment on the children we admit to our programs. Very often the parents justify what they do by saying, \"Well, I was spanked and it never did me any harm.\" Or, \"I know that beating my children is bad, but I know the `right` way to spank, and I only do it because I love him/her.\" In my opinion there is never a \"right\" way for an adult to physically spank a child. It just sends the wrong message about violence, size, and strength and does nothing to encourage character on the inside.

Sorry if this is a little long-winded. I feel very strongly about this subject.

I follow pretty much what you are saying, but gimme an example of \"encouraged the girls to develop self-discipline\" when dealing with a 4 or 5 year old. I don\'t mean to question, I am just really curious what sort of things you put into practice to help ecourage self discipline at that age. After all, I\'d rather take that sort of route than spank...just having a hard time thinking that would work...
...and welcome back to the site!

First of all, let me tell you that my husband and I did everything wrong according to our families and friends. We started with natural husband-coached childbirth, breastfeeding, and the family bed. We did not leave the girls with sitters, or let them spend weekends or overnights with the grandparents. We did not even let them spend the night alone with the grandparents until they were into their teens. We decided early on that we they were going to be our main priority and focus, and they were until they started to become more independent. Only then did we pull back. As a result, the girls did not need to act out to get attention. They knew that they had all the attention they could ever want, and so felt secure and safe.

That being said, here are some of the rules that I followed in parenting the girls:

1. Baby the baby so you don\'t have to baby the adult. When kids are small, there is no difference between wants and needs. I ensured that all of them were met, wants and needs, until they were old enough to understand the difference between the two. If a baby cried, I held her. I did not let them cry themselves to sleep, nor did I try to follow a strict schedule. I was more a sort of \"go with the flow\" kind of mom. Once they got older, I tapered off on fulfilling the wants. Then my rule changed to: give them everything they need and only a little of what they want.

2. Provide more positive interactions than negative. Catch them doing something good, but make it real. Let them know that you are proud and they should be too of their accomplishments and their hard work. But don\'t leave out or fail to address the negatives. This goes along with limit setting and expectations. Make sure they have a clear understanding of what the rules are and don\'t arbitrarily change them.

3. Don\'t make promises you can\'t keep. This is a tough one. This one is the one where if done right, will let your children know that they can trust you and you mean business. I often see parents who say no to a child, and then change the answer to yes if the child is persistent (read loud and annoying)with the request. Along with this, I did not argue with my children. Little ones are not rational and trying to argue with them is like trying to herd cats. Just doesn\'t work. My daughters love to tell the story of the time that I told them if they didn\'t pick up their toys, I would, and if I had to, I would throw them away. Sure enough, after a few hours, I quietly grabbed a garbage bag and gathered up everything that was out of place and out to the trash can it went. The toys were not replaced, there was much weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth, but the girls learned that I meant business, and they did not leave their toys out after that. This incident was the one where they officially dubbed me \"The Meanest Mommy on Earth.\" I still bear that title proudly. They call me MMOE for short. They were 4 and 5 at the time. I also made sure not make promises to them, such as a trip to the park, if I was not absolutely certain that I could keep my promise.

4. Choose your battles wisely. In some respects I have been a very laid back parent. As the girls got older, I gave them more and more autonomy. We didn\'t struggle with food issues (they ate what they wanted out of what was offered), clothes, hair, make-up, or keeping their rooms clean. We had bedtimes until they reached middle school (6th grade). Once they were that old, I figured they knew when they were tired, and I more often than not went to bed before they did. Coincidentally, this was around the time that they started using an alarm clock instead of depending on me to wake them up.

5. Don\'t chase the bus. This is a quote from Erma Bombeck (showing my age), but it served me well. I interpreted this one as allowing the girls to live with the natural consequences of their actions and choices. If they left for school and forgot something important, I did not deliver whatever it was that they left behind. They ended up missing lunch a few times and losing points here and there for homework not turned in on time, but they learned how to be responsible for their own stuff.

I don\'t know if this answers your question or not. I know that it took a lot of patience and time to instill self discipline. There were many times that I left a public place because one of the girls was having a meltdown. Thinking back, I seem to remember a year that we didn\'t go out to eat at all, because we couldn\'t make it through a meal without some sort of drama. I think the key is to start early, be consistent and don\'t give up. Oh, and laugh a lot. We developed so many little traditions as a family that were so .... insignificant. We\'d have coke floats together out on the back deck after supper; we developed the best method for catching fireflies; we\'d watch the same movie (horrors, I let my kids watch TV) over and over and then quote lines to each other during the most outrageous moments; we talked about dreams every morning; we shared the best part about our days every night before bed; we played cutthroat games of badminton, Clue, Life, Candyland, and Jenga. We had soooooo much fun, and we still are having fun. I hope this helps.
-c